The greatest swordsman in the Usagi world?

[Dave]

To be fair, it was I that felt we were going in circles, so I was the one that dropped out of that part of the discussion. Todd is just now entering the discussion and may have some fresh perspectives to lend.

Well, we both agreed to leave it and it was pretty obvious that none of us would progress anywhere.

And I think we should work to keep it a discussion and not an argument. It's been pretty civil up until now (and quite fun), but I'm begining to hear some personal digs that would have offended me had I been the intended source. Let's keep it fun and about Usagi.

My apologies. I let my annoyance at a lengthly repetition and the seemingly very callous intensely embraced philosophy get the better of me.

I definitely agree that we should keep to the lighter enjoyable topics of the thread though. The side-topic is striking too close to home for many of us.

[Dave]

it was something that had to be done that's perhaps the best analysis ! it is not fate, but they were "programmed" to do this. Yukio Mishima's Hagakure Nyumon is a good book about samurai's ethic and way of life (or death, The Way of the Samurai is found in death)

The point is that by saying 'They were programmed to do it! They had no choice! It was justifiable by following tradition!' you take away any level of personal responsibility whatsoever. Yes, much like nazi, stalinist or fascist brainwashing gave people an 'excuse' or sufficiently horrible circumstances turn most people into monsters you can use that justification generally, but within all such cultures and for all people with mind-numbingly painful backgrounds there are still some with the genetics so strongly wired for decency that they rise above it.

Like most heroes Usagi is supposed to be an ideal, an honest, compassionate, brave, humble and hardworking man despite all the injustices surrounding him. I don't particularly care for treating their motivation as that of any easily swayed schmuck, rather than see them symbolising the best examples and innate qualities human potential, regardless of society, has to offer. Free will of inner strength to rise upward towards enlightenment and avoid falling towards more ordinary intense human failings so to speak.

[Fanfan]

First of all i am sorry, i don't have the same language subtility in english than in french. It is why i talked of Hagakure and books that explains mind of samurai (The goal of a samurai is not to become a grandfather, and to die in bed old, weak and ill ... The Way of the Samurai is found in death, Mishima explains that a samurai trains all his life to be ready for his culminate moment, he does'nt want to die but he will be ready and if a samurai go after this moment he will only decline). I should not have add that they were "programmed" ( i did not find appropirate word, it why i put "") but i sill agree with Todd : it was something that had to be done
we don't speak of you an me but of military caste's member in a feodal society where notion of Life and Death is far from ours.

I will only reply with Stan's letter, i believe we are going into a digression...

By today's standards it may sound like an oppressive, inhumane society, but it worked for the situations and the times and it would be a grave error to judge a foreign society by our own standards.

Dave, what is your position about Duel at Kitanoji between Katsuichi and Koji ?

[Spot the Tokage]

From what I've read (book 1-11. I'm on Grasscutter now ) I think Koji is the greatest. If he and Usagi finished the duel, Koji seemed like he would win, so thats why I chose him.

Zato Ino was pretty good too, though. He was extremely skilled, yet he was blind. I definitely think Ino was the second greatest.

[Todd Shogun]

We've had fairly serious discussions like this way in the past, but not recently. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion and reactions to other's opinions here, so I'll ignore the personal digs. Dave: We obviously share a difference in the way we choose to analyze history. I respect that, but I stand firm in that Usagi did not "murder" Gunichi, by any means. Actually, I never even got that impression from Usagi's killing of Gunichi, nor from any of the deaths that Usagi is responsible for. The death of the Obaasan from A Mother's Love was quite a shocker in it's own right, but I never thought of that as murder either. Usagi's slayings have all been for reasons that, in 17th Century Japan, are "justifiable" and "legal" by the standards of that society (without judging it by today's standards). The Katsuichi vs Koji duel was no different, nor were the other fair duels in UY. They may have been for various reasons, but could not be viewed upon as "murder". Had Gunichi been unarmed, helpless, and begging for mercy, and Usagi had slain him anyway, then I think you may be on to something... I do agree with you that Usagi has matured since that duel, but I doubt he regrets his actions or even considers it murder. It was treason by the code of bushido to turn away from your lord in battle, no matter which way you look at it.

Curious, do you think any of Usagi's other killings are "murder"? What about the duel between Usagi and Captain Torame in Dragon Bellow? Usagi actually tried to get him to turn traitor against his own master, but Torame resisted, stating "My Lord's position is hopeless, but I must remain with him". This is the code of bushido. Usagi continued to persuade him, but Torame continued with the warrior riddle. Usagi corrected himself and replied, "I understand. I would never have left my own Lord Mifune though the odds were against him."

[typhoon]

Forgive the intrusion, but even taken in a modern context, what Gunichi did counts as desertion, which at present, in the armies of most countries and in the eyes of the Uniform Code of Military Justice is still an offence punishable by death (though the last time that any US armed service carried out this sentence was in 1961.)

Though morally debatable, Gunichi's actions (running away during a battle) are, from a legalistic standpoint, cut and dried. In contemporary war, it would most likely have earned him a bullet in the back (if caught in the process), or a firing squad or hanging after a court-martial and a (usually very brief) trial. Which, to some extent, explains the 600 officer and NCO casualties in Vietnam from fragging (i.e. receiving a grenade from their own men.)

The only circumstance that extenuates buggering out (other than an order to retreat of course) is a formal surrender by your own side, after which, under the Geneva Convention, your duty as a POW to escape and avoid capture takes precedence.

I think that this makes it abundantly clear that, since Mifune neither surrendered nor ordered a retreat, Gunichi is technically a deserter, and that Usagi's vengance, while repugnant, qualifies as a belated sentence of death even by today's standards.

Not to say that I don't find the entire matter distasteful.

Just some food for thought

[typhoon]

The death of the Obaasan from A Mother's Love was quite a shocker in it's own right, but I never thought of that as murder either.

Very true. Out of curiosity, whose murder specifically? The son's, or the mum's? Personally I found both thoroughly depressing.

[spacepro]

I was acctually thinking about this for a good while.

I beleive Katsuichi (Hope I spelled that right. Usagi's teacher anyway.) is probably the greatest swordsman.

I beleive the title of "Best Swordsman" does not only involve skill. But also the actions he does with the sword.

Katsuichi always acts noble and his wisdom certainly is worth more than a killing level.

Demon Mask was probably a worthy contender, and so was Koji.

But in term of best warrior: If weapons dont really matter. Jei is certainly one of the top contenders, Not only because of his kill numbers, but he always stays loyal to his convictions.

Sure they're sick, but that's what I like about Jei, He really thinks what he's doing is right.

That and he always seems to come back from the dead (I Still got my fingers crossed.)

[Mayhem]

Point: we've never really seen Hikiji fight. Who knows how good he actually is?

[estee]

He fought Usagi to a standstill and inflicted the scar Usagi has. So I'd say the Dark Lord ain't no slouch.

[shaxper]

He fought Usagi to a standstill and inflicted the scar Usagi has. So I'd say the Dark Lord ain't no slouch.

He was also accompanied by quite a few soldiers, all of which were keeping Usagi somewhat off balance at the time...

[Mayhem]

Indeed... we've never seen him in a one-on-one matchup so we can only speculate how good a swordsman he is.

[estee]

Usagi plowed through those soldiers like they were nothing. But Hikiji parried ever strike Usagi made and then made a strike of his own. I think Hikiji could have killed the Young Samurai, but wanted him to live so he'd live with the shame of his defeat.

[Robweiller]

Usagi had every lawful excuse to kill Gunichi.

I'm wondering... What about Usagi's father? He was beheaded by Lord Hikiji himself. I've read all UY books from "The Ronin" to "Journeys with Jotaro" ("Fathers and Sons" is going to be published in Poland this month) and Usagi has never really shown that he wanted to avenge his father's death or something. And taking into consideration his code logic, he should have visited Hikiji's Castle long time ago for that reason.

Or maybe it's shown in "Fathers and Sons" or any further volumes I haven't read yet.

[Cosmo]

Usagi plowed through those soldiers like they were nothing. But Hikiji parried ever strike Usagi made and then made a strike of his own. I think Hikiji could have killed the Young Samurai, but wanted him to live so he'd live with the shame of his defeat.

In my opinion, you shouldn't consider Usagi and Hikiji as equals, socially speaking. Hikiji is a daimyô, a great, powerful and seemingly arrogant feudal lord, and now Usagi is just a dirty wandering -yet skilled- rônin.

Why should Hikiji care about eliminating Usagi ? He never was an imminent threat for him, even at the battle of Adachigahara, with Lord Mifune and his army.

Concerning Usagi's attitude towards Hikiji, I'd say our rabbit has simply learned patience. And as Robweiller said, I can't imagine him not even thinking about revenge.