UY becoming too dark?

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Ben
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UY becoming too dark?

Post by Ben »

This question has been pressing at my mind for some time, but I never knew how or when to bring it up. It's about a gradual shift in tone I've noticed in Usagi during the past twenty-or-so issues into gloomier, grimmer territory.

Since we all read UY as it's released issue by issue, it can be difficult to pick up on the cumulative vibe of an entire arc. However, after I read MOTHER OF MOUNTAINS in paperback form, I couldn't ignore how...vicious...much of the story is. I could be mistaken, but I haven't seen a UY arc yet that featured so many characters that were thoroughly hateful, from Noriko to Lord Horikawa to One-Eye, right down to the samurai guarding the mining operation and the bullies who tormented Motokazu. The sheer nastiness of it all even pushes Usagi to his limit (check out the KILLER look he gives one of the guards in the fourth panel on pg. 104).

The clouds continued to gather from there - very slowly, of course. There are still moments of relief, of course, but they seem to be coming in smaller and smaller quantity with each issue. I had a few personal problems with #95...not so much with the story or characters themselves, but rather the seemingly fatalistic message behind it: Shizukiri is destined to an assassin's life, and Haruye is destined to a prostitute's. The moment they attempt to struggle against their karma, they're "punished". Correct me if I'm wrong here, and I really do hope that I am, but the whole gist of this story seems to be: "Invisible forces have determined that you'll die in a gutter with your money stolen, your wife raped, your belly sliced open, and your Game Boy broken. Oh, and don't try to put up a fight, you'll only make it worse for yourself."

Maybe Sakai-san was trying to paint Shizukiri as a tragic character, but the nihilism at work in this particular issue really hits a nerve. In the context of the plot and Shizukiri's final fate, it was probably needed. Most of my reaction stems from my own personal beliefs. However, I wouldn't have minded #95 so much if it weren't for the stories that followed. Mayumi, one of the few good-hearted characters Usagi has come across in a long time, is brutally dispatched in #102. Heck, in an alternative ending, she's knocked off AND revealed to be another assassin!

As we all know, Jei's origin comes next. Don't get me wrong here; I've been anticipating Jei's return as much as the next schmoe, but hot on the trail of Shizukiri's tale and Mayumi's death, this only doubles the aura of gloom that's begun to surround the title. In a similarly fatalistic story, Jizonobu tries to prevent an act of great evil, only to end up perpetuating it himself. On top of that, we have Tomoe's impending marriage, and Usagi's "premonition" of becoming a demon! I mean, holy cow! Nurse, double my prozac medication stat!

Maybe I'm reading too much into this; I've done it before. Maybe this is just Stan building up walls of brick around the readership to make us believe there isn't the slightest chance of escape, only to throw us a sledge-hammer at the pivotal moment. I certainly hope so. Even Jei needs to lighten up sometimes. :wink:
Last edited by Ben on Thu Aug 09, 2007 13:23 -0700, edited 3 times in total.
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goandal
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Post by goandal »

I've noticed that too. Maybe "Dark" is not the word to describe it...but "Edgy"?
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Stan Sakai
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Post by Stan Sakai »

The grim-ness was quite deliberate on my part, since I was building up to the origins of Jei. Perhaps I overdid it, I don't know. I just felt the tone had to get darker for awhile, at least until Jei's story was finished.
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Post by Leonardo-san »

I like the exploration of a darker tone. It makes a great contrast to the humor and lighter stories, adds layers of depth and drama to the UY comic overall. Although I'd agree if the tone stayed dark all the time, I don't think I'd enjoy it in the long run.
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Post by shaxper »

I think some of the early issues were very dark. We've got the one in "A Mother's Love" in which the elderly mother kills her evil son, the one where Usagi has his daisho stolen and is then beaten and tortured, and I could probably think of more if I took another 30 seconds to do so.

But I guess you're addressing more of a demonic darkness as opposed to plain old brutality, and I do see your point. It is a bit "uncomfortable," as it makes Usagi's world feel dark and dominated by these evil spirits that can exercise terrible power over the world on a whim.

I'm still awaiting some holy counterbalance -- a force or presence that will somehow aid Usagi in defeating Jei. I think that would bring the balance that is lacking and making us uncomfortable, as a result.

Usagi's is usually such a well-balanced world of crime and brutality, innocence and beauty. Jei's dark lords definitely sway that balance more than a bit.
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MikeM
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Post by MikeM »

Maybe I'm in the minority here but I love the darker tone. It builds up to Jei's origin and return. It would be jarring if we had a light hearted issue that was followed with something as dark as Jei's origin. You got to build towards this stuff. As the tone gets darker, the suspense builds. There is a feeling that Usagi is doomed. Then the Jei story wraps up and we go back to some lighter stuff. I think the issues this year have been fantastic and to me obviously building to something.

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Post by Samurai of the Stars »

I think "darker tones" are essential to every great epic. Most plays have three parts;

1. The Introduction of the characters
2. The characters are thrown into the worse position imaginable
3. They finally get out of the situation and everything is happy again.

This is the same with everyone's lives; you learn more from bad experiences than you do from good.
It is essential for a hero to face a darker period in his tale, so ultimately he can overcome it.


:wink:
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Liquid Havok
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Post by Liquid Havok »

Ben - Regarding issue #95 the things that you find uncomfortable or too dark are actually very Japanese. Especially in feudal Japan, there was (is) a very fatalistic view of life. Heck just look at the class system that was in place.

So while you may not enjoy it, those elements are right at home in Usagi. Though I'm sure we'll see lighter stories soon enough.
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Ben
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Post by Ben »

Liquid Havok wrote:Ben - Regarding issue #95 the things that you find uncomfortable or too dark are actually very Japanese. Especially in feudal Japan, there was (is) a very fatalistic view of life. Heck just look at the class system that was in place.

So while you may not enjoy it, those elements are right at home in Usagi.
Maybe, but remember much of that kind of mindset was induced by the climate - earthquakes, endless civil wars, tyrannical class structure, etc. And besides, a lot of UY is about struggling against those forces. #95 just seemed to represent an act of surrender, and that's the only difficulty I have while reading it. I guess my problem is that I'm more of a fan of more Shakespearean tragedy, where the protagonist's plight is brought about by his own actions as much as the circumstances around him. Shizukiri's story was a little more "classical Greek" in that sense.

Frankly, I'm inclined to wonder if the karma Haruye was referring to is in reality the Dark Gods whom Jei worships, since it seems to delight in dealing out "inevitable" pain and misery.
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Post by Liquid Havok »

Ben wrote: Maybe, but remember much of that kind of mindset was induced by the climate - earthquakes, endless civil wars, tyrannical class structure, etc.


Well that may be true, but the same can be said of Europe or anywhere else during the same time period, yet they did not (do not) have the same view of life. Much of that comes from their religion, I suppose.
Ben wrote: And besides, a lot of UY is about struggling against those forces. #95 just seemed to represent an act of surrender, and that's the only difficulty I have while reading it.
I would tend to disagree. There are probably numerous examples of characters surrendering to their fate. (I'd have to check for specifics...) Or at the very least following some sort of order even if it flies in the face of any sort of sense. "Such is the way of things, karma ne?"

I'm not really disagreeing with you, I'm only saying that I personally do not think it is out of place...and as Stan has said, the "darkness" was really only to set the stage for the Jei story arc.
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Ben
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Post by Ben »

Liquid Havok wrote:I would tend to disagree. There are probably numerous examples of characters surrendering to their fate. (I'd have to check for specifics...) Or at the very least following some sort of order even if it flies in the face of any sort of sense. "Such is the way of things, karma ne?"
Sure, there have been plenty of occasions where different characters have said something to that effect, but it wasn't until #95 that a much gloomier meaning was attached to the word. Up until then, mentioning "karma" was more or less the equivalent of saying, "Whatever will be, will be." In Shizukiri's and Haruye's case, karma seemed to be a malevolent, all-powerful authority actively working against them. That's really where my connection to the Dark Gods came from.
I'm not really disagreeing with you, I'm only saying that I personally do not think it is out of place...and as Stan has said, the "darkness" was really only to set the stage for the Jei story arc.
Oh, absolutely. Under any other circumstance, I probably would have been confused by the series' changing tone, but since it was all part of Sensei's plan to bring back Jei with a bang, I'm happy to roll with the punches. 8)

EDIT: In fact, the more I think about it, the more I feel the Dark Gods embody the "endgame scenario" of feudal Japan's philosophy towards human existence; detached acceptance of "fate", unquestioning fealty to one's lord (Jei and his quest to 'destroy evil'), etc. Maybe a future story arc could be about the eventual downfall of the Dark Gods, and thus the downfall of "fate"...
Last edited by Ben on Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:38 -0700, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert Kassebaum
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Post by Robert Kassebaum »

Stan Sakai wrote:The grim-ness was quite deliberate on my part, since I was building up to the origins of Jei. Perhaps I overdid it, I don't know. I just felt the tone had to get darker for awhile, at least until Jei's story was finished.
I feel the dark tone is not over-done. And it is quite refreshing to see the story take a step off the usual path.
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Post by sschroeder »

Ben wrote:In Shizukiri's and Haruye's case, karma seemed to be a malevolent, all-powerful authority actively working against them. That's really where my connection to the Dark Gods came from.
I don't think you should read too much into what characters think is conspiring against them. The fact that they tried to break out of their lives time after time and came back to the same point still does not mean that they are stuck in their fate. It is merely what they believe. It might actually be true, but it probably comes down more to the strictures of their society and lack of opportunities (like education) to make changes. And losing hope of making changes is another factor.

Also, what characters do and say is not necessarily a reflection of the values of the creator. He could be exploring that viewpoint for himself through the characters, or he could be pointing out that the way they are behaving seems wrong to him. Since it immediately raised a red flag for you, you could choose to read it that way after you examine it and decide it is not for you.
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Post by Liquid Havok »

Interesting points. Especially regarding the difference in what characters think is happening and what is actually occurring.

Though I don't believe Ben was seeing any connection to Stan's view and his characters' viewpoint.
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Post by Ben »

sschroeder wrote:Also, what characters do and say is not necessarily a reflection of the values of the creator. He could be exploring that viewpoint for himself through the characters, or he could be pointing out that the way they are behaving seems wrong to him. Since it immediately raised a red flag for you, you could choose to read it that way after you examine it and decide it is not for you.
Sschroeder, I don't try to connect the thoughts and actions of two characters with their creator. I never implied that the viewpoint of Shizukiri and Haruye was Stan's. USAGI YOJIMBO, being a long-running series, has to switch back and forth to individuals with different views on life (and death) for the sake of variety. As Liquid Havok said, some of the ones seen in #95 are very Japanese in nature, and it wouldn't be right to enforce a more Western perspective into such a story, since foreigners are barely even in Japan at this point of history.

I think that's part of my own problem. I was born in Bermuda, but I've been mostly raised on Western thought. It can be difficult to break out of that box. Sometimes I fall back in without even knowing it.
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