Two random questions

[Mayhem]

As I'm going through my issues and seeing about bagging/boarding all them individually, two thoughts came to me from randomly picking up a few issues to read (as I do)...

1) Any chance of seeing how Shunji is doing in the near future? Kinda miss his antics, especially now he isn't being trained by Katsuichi.

2) Jotaro's conception... I'd like to consider putting together some sort of Usagi timeline (as in AGE X - event happened etc), and was thinking... it happened some point between Usagi's recount of going home in issue #1.3 and leaving to serve Mifune correct? By the time Usagi next returns home in Critters #10, it's five years later or so... and Jotaro hence is about four years or so I guess...?

[Cosmo]

1. I unconditionally agree with Mayhem. I'd love to see Shunji brought back too. I liked him, and I feel it was quite rough to evict him like this.

2. It seems to me that Jotaro has grown (physically) from "Circles" to his first appearance in TPB #17. Two years or so must have passed. I estimate that Jotaro was 3 or 4 in "Homecoming", and perhaps 5 or 6 in "Circles". I can only say that the idea of a more precise timeline is in the air.

Oh, by the way, http://www.usagiyojimbo.com/characters/jotaro.html says :
Jotaro is now almost at the age to receive his Samurai topknot

If true, it means that Jotaro is in his teens... which seems quite unbelievable....

[Todd Shogun]

2) Jotaro's conception... I'd like to consider putting together some sort of Usagi timeline (as in AGE X - event happened etc), and was thinking... it happened some point between Usagi's recount of going home in issue #1.3 and leaving to serve Mifune correct? By the time Usagi next returns home in Critters #10, it's five years later or so... and Jotaro hence is about four years or so I guess...?

Mr. Cosmo is hard-at-work on the Dojo's Official UY Timeline, but Jotaro was established as being about 9/10 years old some time ago...

http://usagiyojimbo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1241

http://usagiyojimbo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1118

This is of course, based on Usagi's age, which has been established at approx. 27/28. That would mean Usagi and Mariko were in their late teens (17/18 ) when Jotaro was conceived.

I imagine that once Mr. Cosmo has done all the research and put everything together, the true of of Jotaro will be finalized...

[Cosmo]

Should I perceive something like acrimony in your words, Todd ? I'm working at my own pace. Please forgive my tendency to procrastination, I'd be a real Stakhanovist without it.

Tout vient à point à qui sait attendre...

[Todd Shogun]

Take your time...this could very well be one of the most delicate UYD projects ever undertaken...

[Treadwell]

Indeed...with over 20 years of material, fitting it all into just a few years of "Usagi time" might take a bit of dramatic license.

[Cosmo]

Okay, I consulted my notes and actually, Todd's figure (Jotaro being 9 or 10 in TPBs #18 and #19) seems right.

I'd simply say that when I wrote the first message in this thread, it was 2 AM here and I wasn't quite fresh as a daisy.

Plus, the need I had to (re-)memorize the full list of popes from 1203 to 1440 or so has saturated my sense of chronology. Please remember Mr. Sakai to take a whip when he comes to Paris in July.

Well, anyway, I don't know if I really should correct my first message accordingly. I should be more cautious.

[Mayhem]

This is of course, based on Usagi's age, which has been established at approx. 27/28. That would mean Usagi and Mariko were in their late teens (17/18 ) when Jotaro was conceived.

Which is exactly where my next question was going to go... how old were Usagi and Kenichi when they left the village to be trained? Because that would then establish many of the other dates based on the times Usagi quotes in the first four issues as happening between events.

I was looking at...

12 - Usagi runs off to be with Katsuichi

16 - Duelling contest where Usagi wins his swords; returns to village; conceives Jotaro with Mariko during that last picnic; leaves to serve Mifune

17 - Jotaro born

21 - "Homecoming" story, first meeting with Jotaro

23 - "Circles"

At this moment in time, given Katsuichi's comment in issue... erm the one with the duel (#3.61?) where he will now train Jotaro and knows that he is Usagi's son... he states he is just like Usagi at that age. Which implies therefore that Jotaro must be about 11-12 at that issue too. Unless he was just generalising.

On the other hand, things take a long time to pass occasionally. Issue #3.7 had Koji request the duel one year hence. So only a year's time passes in 54 issues.

[KairiYojimbo]

So, reading all this, Usagi actually became a Dad at the age of 17?

Whoa, my age! O_O

Hehe, well I guess that's what happens when you can't find protection.

I don't think they even had protection or birth-control back then.

Nothing bad, I think Jotaro is really adorable, and a nice character.
Just had to get this off my chest.

Usagi's was a teenage Dad! *giggles*

[Todd Shogun]

12 - Usagi runs off to be with Katsuichi

16 - Duelling contest where Usagi wins his swords; returns to village; conceives Jotaro with Mariko during that last picnic; leaves to serve Mifune

17 - Jotaro born

21 - "Homecoming" story, first meeting with Jotaro

23 - "Circles"

That sounds about right. Usagi could have left to train with Katsuichi even earlier, like 8 or 9 years old. I don't think it is actually mentioned just how long he was with Katsuichi...only that it was right up to the point where he begins serving Lord Mifune.

Another thing is it is difficult to place Usagi's age at the time he started training with Katsuichi based on what he actually looked like. Back in "Samurai" he looks really young...one could say he's about 8 or 9, maybe younger...but he could very well be 11 or 12 there. It's hard to say because Stan's style has changed so much over the years. Back then the characters were much less humanly proportioned (look at the opening sequence with Usagi and Gunichi). Characters were squatter/shorter/wider in appearance back then..so what a 12-year old looked like then might be more what a 8-year-old looks like now. It's difficult to say. We may end up having to make a few assumptions.

[Cosmo]

That sounds about right. Usagi could have left to train with Katsuichi even earlier, like 8 or 9 years old. I don't think it is actually mentioned just how long he was with Katsuichi...only that it was right up to the point where he begins serving Lord Mifune.

This matches up with my own thoughts. Actually, it is mentioned how long did Usagi stay with Katsuichi. Usagi says in "Samurai" :

"I lived with Katsuichi, my sensei, since almost four years..." at the time of his first tournament at the Dogora School.

By the way, the following box is the first time we see Usagi with his topknot. Which suggests he's finally reached 13 or 14 years old.

Another problem is that we don't know exactly how much time Usagi spends alone in self-training after the Dogora School tournament. This could be quite a long time. Self-discipline is hard to acquire.

Another thing is it is difficult to place Usagi's age at the time he started training with Katsuichi based on what he actually looked like. Back in "Samurai" he looks really young...one could say he's about 8 or 9, maybe younger...but he could very well be 11 or 12 there. It's hard to say because Stan's style has changed so much over the years. Back then the characters were much less humanly proportioned (look at the opening sequence with Usagi and Gunichi). Characters were squatter/shorter/wider in appearance back then..so what a 12-year old looked like then might be more what a 8-year-old looks like now. It's difficult to say. We may end up having to make a few assumptions.

If we put this stylistic problem aside, the way Usagi and Kenichi squabble, insult and fight each other... Very childish, actually. I'd be surprised if they were older than 8 or 9.

Furthermore, the fight between Katsuichi and the Dogora zealots doesn't seem to scare them. When Usagi follows his future sensei, he doesn't even give it a second thought. Katsuichi deems Usagi's attitude as being "reckless" (is that the word used ? I don't have the English version of the story...) but isn't thoughtlessness a childish virtue ?

This psychological analysis may not convince everyone, but it really suggests a younger Usagi in "Samurai". When Usagi's father tells his son and Kenichi they're "soon in age to receive [their] topknots", I think he was speaking on the long term.

[Mayhem]

Indeed this is partly the confusing issue... based on the timings is when I'm trying to judge Usagi's age when he and Kenichi left and yet they do look younger than I think they needed to be. Certainly I'd wonder if Usagi conceived Jotaro at anything younger than 16 now

Another problem is that we don't know exactly how much time Usagi spends alone in self-training after the Dogora School tournament. This could be quite a long time. Self-discipline is hard to acquire.

We do actually... issue #2 states he spent two months with Katsuichi after the tournament and then on his advice, went in seclusion in the mountains to train and practice with his new swords. There he was tested by Gunichi. Issue #3 states he spent a month in the mountains before deciding to visit home one last time before going off to serve Mifune.

On the way back he meets a drunk Kenichi and the confrontation in the village... evidently he must have spent some time in the village and gone on that fateful picnic with Mariko (which actually happens in flashback twice in different issues).

[Cosmo]

Another problem is that we don't know exactly how much time Usagi spends alone in self-training after the Dogora School tournament. This could be quite a long time. Self-discipline is hard to acquire.

We do actually... issue #2 states he spent two months with Katsuichi after the tournament and then on his advice, went in seclusion in the mountains to train and practice with his new swords. There he was tested by Gunichi. Issue #3 states he spent a month in the mountains before deciding to visit home one last time before going off to serve Mifune.

Hmm, that's not the way I understand things. Usagi says :

"I left the solitude of the mountain one month later" [after Gunichi's test], but he doesn't state how long did he stay alone between the moment he left Katsuichi and Gunichi's test.

Am I wrong ? Sorry, but as I have only the French translation, there could be some ambiguity.

[Mayhem]

I see your point there... I was taking the "one month later" to be after the point when he first entered the mountains, you're taking it as after the point Gunichi tested him.

However, in the panel where we see him testing the swords and slicing the dragonfly (the panel before Gunichi appears) he states "a lot lighter than the bokken I've been using for the past three years".

Given he spent four years with Katsuichi and started training with the bokken after being with him for a year, this rather means to me he can't have spent that long in the mountains, otherwise that "three" would start to head towards "four" instead.

[Todd Shogun]

"I lived with Katsuichi, my sensei, since almost four years..." at the time of his first tournament at the Dogora School.

That's what I get for trying to go off my blasted memory... I stand corrected then! I'm getting too old...next time I'm going to the books....

This could mean that Usagi was closer to 12/13 when he first went off to train with Katsuichi. Or that he was younger than we thought when he and Mariko had the fateful picnic lunch...like around 14/15 (if we assume he was about 10/11 years old when he joined Katsuichi). Of course, we'd all like to think he was a bit older at that point, but this was over 400 years ago and in a completely different culture than what most of us are accustomed to. So who knows...since we have no "starting age" to work from, the only way to do this is to either have Stan make an executive decision, or work our way backwards as carefully as possible.

Mayhem, sounds to me like you'd got a pretty good angle on the chronology of UY. Perhaps you could team up with Cosmo and work together on the timeline, at least for the initial part of it. Two heads think better than one...Aside from the early years of Usagi's life, the timeline should be pretty straightforward to come up with. The only question now is...where do we put the Jei origin story??