Religion in Usagi Y.

[Redwall Templar]

I look at it this way personaly. Why waste time going to a country where more than not, one is not welcome, along with their presentation of faith foreign to that country. Would this be any different than walking into someone's home who you know does not like said faith and start yammering on about it?

However extreme the imprisonment is for merely talking, they know they are going to go into a place of conflicting instrests. It is their bussiness if they want enter conflict over their agenda that risks their well being. It is unwise however.

I would feel much as Usagi did by the end of the issue after that cross was delivered, were I in the other seeing such things happening where I live.

[Andy]

I guess it would be their feeling that if one person was reached it would be worth it to them.

We have quite a diverse selection of choices in the United States -- and more coming in all the time as people from more countries immigrate. I'll bet their grateful that we don't have an official religion here that excludes the one they want to bring with them.

[Redwall Templar]

Yes you would be right on that. Though I consider reaching out to someone in that manner rather egocentric. Myself for instance rather follow the addage, don't call me I'll call you. If a person feels that they are experiencing some sort of inner-transition eventually they will seek out a means to understand it on their own without the need to be told before hand. At least that is my observation. I once was catholic but, never truly had my heart into it, even as a child. Oh I was never a problem or caused a ruckuss but, I was told to go up until the typicly second to last year of CCD, if memory serves well enough. I eventually made a transition on my own, knowing well that it didn't do anything for me. Not long after, I ceased going to church at my first year in Jr High. The transition took many years afterward to understand what it was that didn't sit well and what I believe and do not believe but, I found my own way to arrive to this destination. While someone may mean well, I find it degrating and insulting to my own intelligence that someone is telling me I have chosen the wrong path and am a sinner that needs to be saved.

[Andy]

I would take the same approach as you. I have my beliefs, and I generally wait til someone asks me what I believe. If I'm having a conversation with a friend, and topics come up, I'll say what I believe.

For some I'm sure it is ego centric. For others I think they sincerely believe they are responding to "The Great Commission" Christ gave his disciples when he said, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every living creature, etc." There are some I respect very much who believe that commission pertains to them. Some take action because they don't want to be disobedient to that command.

For myself, I've always heard the saying, "I'd rather see a sermon than hear one." Also, "Preach the gospel...if necessary, use words."

Religion, or spiritual beliefs is a touchy topic. I think sensitivity is needed for those who want to communicate about the topic in whatever situation. I take my hat off to the missionaries who give up the idea of having a comfortable normal life to present information that they believe could be helpful and life-changing, as long as they respect the culture of the people they are visitting.

I know it's been done horrendously probably more times than not. Don't get me started on Columbus! This kind of a thing is a shame and casts aspersions on those who are doing a good thing.

[Usagi]

You are looking at the problem with the eyes of the 21th century.

In these times (upto 1800), religion was a tool for power. So the monks, bibles and information sent to Japan between the first contact and 1635 (when all christians in Japan were killed or converted), were used to undermine the authority of the government.

So basically, it wasn't the religion itself that was causing the trouble but the political games behind it. Telling the Japanese population (most not really educated peasants) that there is just one god (traditionally, Japan knows 15 Million different ikami which roughly translates into gods, heroes and supernatural beings) and that the tenno<emperor> is not a descendend of the gods (and thus, the shogun isn't approved by god) is dangerous.

This together with the traditional view of the Japanese population that a life wasn't worth much could easily lead to rebellion (and it did).

Of course, the shogun played the same games. In the end, he got what he wanted and anyone, who could pose a threat to his rule was killed or banished from the land.

During 1600, things started to boil. The priests and monks (which were in fact more like political activists first and men of the cloth second) tried to push christian-friendly daimyo into power. These of course were mostly men who were not on the side of the shogun (otherwise, they wouldn't have to plot with outsiders).

Later, this rebellion (that's what it really was and not about Jesus and the Word) was quenched quite brutally.

This is also the reason, why the Dutch could keep their outpost in Nagasaki: They never tried to use their position to make politics.

Once, they were ordered to demolish their warehouses. Instead of arguing and complaining, the man in charge had all wares brought to their ships and take the buildings down to the last stone well within the time he was given my the order.

The next day, the shogunate rewarded this with the artificial island in the harbor of Nagasaki along with on monopoly on the foreign trade. Everybody else had to leave immediately and was threatened to be killed on return.

Ohhhhhhhh I see!....

[Usagi]

Accually, not meaning to stray even marginaly from the topic but, even in the 21 Century religion is still used as a tool. And while I'm not sure of Japan's 21st Century outlook, a similar thing does occour in other countries where christianity does try and convert and "save from sin" in other countries. Two particular individuals were inprisoned in the middle-east for several months and when released came back to the States and had/has every intention of going back to start all over again.

Yea...I can agree with you on that, but sometimes I think people loose hope in thier faith, and stick with Scionce, and a lot of people no a' days. just feel that "God"...speeking from a Chritian point, is not their....so the faiths like Methodist, Baptist, Prespotearion Ect....try to get people to join their Churches and such, like the Jahova Witness.....they go to your door, or Mail you Jesus Magic Eyes...

When the Tsunami Happend, Chirtians went their to not only help the people, but get them to convert. I read in a book "God Accepts everyone, rather they know it or not, but its the people who want to accpet God in to thier lives, thats how they will get into the Kingdom of Heaven"<-- So, the Chirstians belive it is their duety to get people to convert beause they are too Ignerant to know that God loves them.

[Redwall Templar]

quote] Yea...I can agree with you on that, but sometimes I think people loose hope in thier faith, and stick with Scionce, and a lot of people no a' days. just feel that "God"...speeking from a Chritian point, is not their....so the faiths like Methodist, Baptist, Prespotearion Ect....try to get people to join their Churches and such, like the Jahova Witness.....they go to your door, or Mail you Jesus Magic Eyes...

When the Tsunami Happend, Christians went their to not only help the people, but get them to convert. I read in a book "God Accepts everyone, rather they know it or not, but its the people who want to accpet God in to thier lives, thats how they will get into the Kingdom of Heaven"<-- So, the Chirstians belive it is their duety to get people to convert beause they are too Ignerant to know that God loves them.[/quote]

I have to somewhat agree with you on the part that people lose hope even though this was not my experience. Kneeling and other standard rituals really didn't do anything for me, and after a fashion seemed impractical too even though I didn't know the world impractical. Nothing better or worse ever happened as a result there of to me. And the more I thought for myself instead of letting someone else make my mind up for me, the better I felt.

And one thing I despise about the common belief in western religions in particular is that, they very often consider it sin to study other religions as well. Such thinking closes off so much of the world out there to learn from. And it is sad when an institution of any kind wants to close one off from learning about something else, not to mention questionable.

Look at the Templar Knights. Look at St. Joan D'Arc or Saint Joan of Arc if you prefer. Could their churches have asked for more faithful to their god. Not likely. Templar knights were created by the same church that later called for their executions. Oddly enough it happened at around the same time the Templars accumulated enough earnings for themselves.

Saint Joan of Arc, that poor girl in part also got the same treatment as the Templars more or less. The church didn't care about her and did nothing to make things easier. Blame also must be given to her king too who didn't lift a finger to pay any ransom for her being imprisoned. What did he care, he got Frances territory lost to the Bristish back.

The Navajo (Correct me if I have the wrong nation mentioned) here in America and probably not only them but other native american nation reservations, the parents had their own children taken from reservations during the 1930's by catholics to teach them about catholism, and were even forbidden from speaking the native tongue they were raised to by, their own parents.

These are examples of when ignorance turns to danger and dictatorship. So, unfortunatly there have been too many who though may worship the teachings of "God accepts everyone" but do not practice it and infact will sometimes to go and do perform examples that are the complete opposite of that philosphy they claim to prescribe to. There was a character much like this in the novel Cloud of Sparrows who shows good example if I remember correctly.

By the way, I think it is great that we can have a civil discussion about this and people here aren't afraid to discuss religion as though it were some taboo to. Some other forum I participate, this has been discussed twice and both times got vicious with their postings. Glad we are continuing it here.

Then again, Usagi Yojimbo DOES generate a better mannered willing crowd.

In regards to the Tsunami, I had expected as much. I mean that not in vainity. Just that I can appreciate it being mentioned.

[Andy]

I also appreciate that we can discuss it civilly, and you make a lot of good points.

[Usagi]

Yea! me too for sure- makes (and helps ) me learn a lot.....

[Usagi]

I have to somewhat agree with you on the part that people lose hope even though this was not my experience. Kneeling and other standard rituals really didn't do anything for me, and after a fashion seemed impractical too even though I didn't know the world impractical. Nothing better or worse ever happened as a result there of to me. And the more I thought for myself instead of letting someone else make my mind up for me, the better I felt.

And one thing I despise about the common belief in western religions in particular is that, they very often consider it sin to study other religions as well. Such thinking closes off so much of the world out there to learn from. And it is sad when an institution of any kind wants to close one off from learning about something else, not to mention questionable.


Look at the Templar Knights. Look at St. Joan D'Arc or Saint Joan of Arc if you prefer. Could their churches have asked for more faithful to their god. Not likely. Templar knights were created by the same church that later called for their executions. Oddly enough it happened at around the same time the Templars accumulated enough earnings for themselves.

Saint Joan of Arc, that poor girl in part also got the same treatment as the Templars more or less. The church didn't care about her and did nothing to make things easier. Blame also must be given to her king too who didn't lift a finger to pay any ransom for her being imprisoned. What did he care, he got Frances territory lost to the Bristish back.

The Navajo (Correct me if I have the wrong nation mentioned) here in America and probably not only them but other native american nation reservations, the parents had their own children taken from reservations during the 1930's by catholics to teach them about catholism, and were even forbidden from speaking the native tongue they were raised to by, their own parents.

These are examples of when ignorance turns to danger and dictatorship. So, unfortunatly there have been too many who though may worship the teachings of "God accepts everyone" but do not practice it and infact will sometimes to go and do perform examples that are the complete opposite of that philosphy they claim to prescribe to. There was a character much like this in the novel Cloud of Sparrows who shows good example if I remember correctly.

By the way, I think it is great that we can have a civil discussion about this and people here aren't afraid to discuss religion as though it were some taboo to. Some other forum I participate, this has been discussed twice and both times got vicious with their postings. Glad we are continuing it here.

Then again, Usagi Yojimbo DOES generate a better mannered willing crowd.

In regards to the Tsunami, I had expected as much. I mean that not in vainity. Just that I can appreciate it being mentioned.

I personally do not think it bad to study other faiths or religions. I do that as hobbie now. I do not find that bad, but I also still have a strong love for my own faith. But understanding others is good for understanding themselfes and studying thier faith helps them understand why that person is the way they are.

When it comes to the Saints and your speeking of Saint Joan of Arc, this brought to my attention the way the Catholic Chirch was back in the days were times were the roughest like the black death and such. The Church stole peoples money to convence them they could buy their way from their sin<-- and the poor people, once realizing the Chirch was really doing nothing for them, desided to break away and foarm a new Church (thus starting Protistent)-- I do know though, and it makes me releaved, that Pope John Paul Appolizied for all the worng doings that the Catholic church had done (I think for overthe past 2,000 years?) -- that takes some guts to admit your faith had done wrong.

The one thing that boggles me acctually is the differences btwn Saints and Profits...but I think the main thing to remember form these people- who were tutched by God- so as they clame- Is that they stood up fir what thety belived in, even if the enimie is inside thier havins.

I do think, that some of the doings form the Church can be a wrongdoing. When my best firend Fumiko (whom is Buddhist)- and I speek of faith we are not really carefull on what we say-because we know- we are not on a mission to convert one another lol-- but i do wish for het to go to my First Communion and baptizm next Easter, at which she would love to go to hirch with me one day, to exsperiance it and learn<--- thats a lot different then convertihng lol!

Other people might find it a mission for others to convert and be a good christian, but I look at it as, If you area different faith, I do not push mine on you, because it would be wrong...I admit I am a bit more religous then most folks these days, but it dose not make me sad to see hypocrits, of people ignorant of "my" God- rather- I would like to learn of another- Just as Catholicism, Iv studyed it for almost 10 years and just now desiding to Convert, but am I wrong for doing that?- Most are saying "yes"---

[Redwall Templar]

Now that's more interesting. Rather than converting an experience was shared.

Converting in of itself, no matter its base, is a process in wich the ultimate goal is to eliminate what already is there. Sharing on the otherhand, its intent is to expand or add to what is already there. To share, its nature is to expand or offer growth. Converting promotes removal and loss.

Think of the Cuckoo bird in a symbolic sense. It doesn't bother making its own nest or raise its own young. What it does is goes out, finds some other birds nest with eggs, knocks those eggs out and replaces them with her own, flies off. It forced trade of one egg for her own. This to me is not that much different than the intent to convert, particularly when the other can't catch on to this. I hope this makes sense. Symbolism is not my strength.

[Tim]

Going back to the original tangent of how good this issue was...I thought it was amazing. I have been reading Usagi comics for the overwhelming majority of my life and I've come to be able to expect some of Mr. Sakai's "surprise" endings. I didn't see this coming at all.

I was raised non-denominational Christian, and I was lucky enough to be at home (in Ohio) when I picked up this issue. The first thing I did when I was done was make my mom read it, and she loved it. So I guess I converted her...to Usagi.

I'm not sure what religion Stan is, if any. I seem to recall he's done some art work for some kind of Christian organization on a regular basis (though I'm not really sure where I heard/read that). Regardless, I think it's great how he treats all the characters in his stories and their individual beliefs with so much respect. Presenting an audience with a number of different viewpoints and facts while refraining from pressing one's own beliefs on people really makes for much better storytelling. If only more media took a hint from Stan Sakai...

[Anjin-san]

You are looking at the problem with the eyes of the 21th century.

In these times (upto 1800), religion was a tool for power. So the monks, bibles and information sent to Japan between the first contact and 1635 (when all christians in Japan were killed or converted), were used to undermine the authority of the government.

So basically, it wasn't the religion itself that was causing the trouble but the political games behind it. Telling the Japanese population (most not really educated peasants) that there is just one god (traditionally, Japan knows 15 Million different ikami which roughly translates into gods, heroes and supernatural beings) and that the tenno<emperor> is not a descendend of the gods (and thus, the shogun isn't approved by god) is dangerous.

This together with the traditional view of the Japanese population that a life wasn't worth much could easily lead to rebellion (and it did).

Of course, the shogun played the same games. In the end, he got what he wanted and anyone, who could pose a threat to his rule was killed or banished from the land.

During 1600, things started to boil. The priests and monks (which were in fact more like political activists first and men of the cloth second) tried to push christian-friendly daimyo into power. These of course were mostly men who were not on the side of the shogun (otherwise, they wouldn't have to plot with outsiders).

Later, this rebellion (that's what it really was and not about Jesus and the Word) was quenched quite brutally.

This is also the reason, why the Dutch could keep their outpost in Nagasaki: They never tried to use their position to make politics.

Once, they were ordered to demolish their warehouses. Instead of arguing and complaining, the man in charge had all wares brought to their ships and take the buildings down to the last stone well within the time he was given my the order.

The next day, the shogunate rewarded this with the artificial island in the harbor of Nagasaki along with on monopoly on the foreign trade. Everybody else had to leave immediately and was threatened to be killed on return.

Although what you've said is true, there was something much more fundamental and it struck at the heart of the feudal Japanese culture.

As we all know, the word "samurai" means "those who serve." Service without question and utmost loyalty is the very heart of Bushido. So, with that in mind, to whom is a Catholic samurai truly loyal -- His master ? Or The Pope ?

It was this dual-allegiance dichotomy which made all Christians suspect in the eyes of non-Christian daimyo. Christians could not be trusted to be loyal in the way Bushido demanded -- ONE lord and master only. So those who chose to be Christians also chose to disregard Bushido in a sense. Thus, not only were Christian samurai suspect, they also dishonored themselves in the eyes of non-Christian daimyo.

In short, a non-trustworthy and dishonorable retainer is not something any lord would tolerate and therefore the Christianity of the time (i.e. 17th century Catholicism) was a dangerous religion that threatened Japanese society. It had to be purged if the Japanese feudal system was to survive.

[hakucho]

the fact that Stan touches on issues in Feudal Japan such as the secret Christians is one of the reasons I love UY: he's not reluctant to show that these events did happen and people did accept a faith different from what they were expected to believe by the Shogunate.

Apart from what I felt was the obvious for the Christians having to keep hidden from authorities (in that missionaries were REALLY disliked by the Shogun when he unified Japan), the differences in belief between Catholicism and Bushido helps to offer a more broader understanding of what was going on then. Thanks to my fellow UY fans for pointing this out

[Usagi]

Wow! people are still commenting on this! Thats great!--

Apart form what was recently said, Each charactor having his/her own identaty trait, and just modling it into the type of charactor, that we could all learn from. Such as the ingnerant Usagi, bringing the bundle to the keeper animal I tihnk in Issue 82?-- Were he was givin the Crsafix-

I like how for this, Usagi is not a "know it all" type charactor, but one who can also be tought by the other charactors develuped along in the storyline and hostry basis that a lot of people really dont pay attention too.

What I really enjoy most about this, is There is time taken out of some issures to talk about the acctual facts and events that go on in that Era, evin though it might be bad or good.

I feel really bad because I lost contact with my best firend Fumiko, shes back home in japan now, and she was really interested in Christiananity, which I tought her about (and took her to mass once<-- What an exsperiance she had. She loved it) -- but the fact is, she learnd form this, not nessosarilly beliving it, but realizing it is there...--> Dose Usagi ever understand the fundamitals of Chirtianity in the Comic?